morality's half twists

[stanky]

"He who is last shall be first" is a good one. We get the idea, even without religion, but for followers of Christ, or any believers in life after death in general, trying to be last in line on this mortal coil would be like trying to be first in line...wouldn't it? If i was caught fighting my way to be first in line, and chastised for it, i would explain to the 'angel' that i was trying to be last in line in the promised land...which surely matters more than this world and it's rules.

i have lots of examples to bore you with, bit i'd like to hear others, if possible.

[sparks]

One I like is "Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you."

Not bad, as long as everyone observes it. But there are 8.1 Billion of us now and growing so it seems unlikely that this one will ever work worth two shits in a fruit jar.

We're still primates after all.

[stanky]

yeah, that one's got a half twist too.
What about masochists? They want you to hurt them, so they should hurt you in order to get what they want.
I made a platinum rule that covers that. i forget the wording.
Of course, one assumes, at some point, that suggesting how others should behave, will itself be noxious behavior.

Layers of subtlety later, "Do whatever you want" will be the edict...but even that proclamation is pointless. and potentially offensive, to, say, an addict fighting his impulses.

[Meadmaker]

One I like is "Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you."

Not bad, as long as everyone observes it. But there are 8.1 Billion of us now and growing so it seems unlikely that this one will ever work worth two shits in a fruit jar.

We're still primates after all.

There is no such thing as morality unless everyone in the world is moral?

Do they have to be moral all the time, too?


In my opinion, the Golden Rule, which Jesus did not invent, is a good basis for morality, and I think it covers pretty much everything.

[Meadmaker]

yeah, that one's got a half twist too.
What about masochists? They want you to hurt them, so they should hurt you in order to get what they want.

It's a misinterpretation.

They want you to hurt them, so they should do something for you, that you want, in return for you hurting them, in the way they want to be hurt.


If we assume that the masochism is something of a sexual variety, it comes done to "If you fulfill my desires I will fulfill yours", which surely is a good thing. There is something of an asymmetry in most sexual encounters, but surely that doesn't mean they can never be moral, and surely Jesus (and Hillel before him, and every other philosopher before them) was aware of that.



It's like, I want you to sell me a sandwich, but the only moral way I can to that is if I sell you a sandwich. Then, when we're done, we haven't accomplished anything. On the other hand, if I say, "Give me something I want. In return, I will give you something you want." we have fulfilled the Golden Rule. I get a sandwich. You get money. Both of us are happy, and all is moral.

[sparks]

One I like is "Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you."

Not bad, as long as everyone observes it. But there are 8.1 Billion of us now and growing so it seems unlikely that this one will ever work worth two shits in a fruit jar.

We're still primates after all.

There is no such thing as morality unless everyone in the world is moral?

Didn't say that. However, once I know what to expect from someone it will cause me to stay the hell away from them if they're abusive of my ideals. In simpler language, if people treat me right, I'll return the favor. If not, they get nothing from me. I'm not going to be nice and charming to some bastard who cheats, uses or otherwise pisses me off. Those Great Unwashed can fuck right off.

[Meadmaker]

One I like is "Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you."

Not bad, as long as everyone observes it. But there are 8.1 Billion of us now and growing so it seems unlikely that this one will ever work worth two shits in a fruit jar.

We're still primates after all.

There is no such thing as morality unless everyone in the world is moral?

Didn't say that. However, once I know what to expect from someone it will cause me to stay the hell away from them if they're abusive of my ideals. In simpler language, if people treat me right, I'll return the favor. If not, they get nothing from me. I'm not going to be nice and charming to some bastard who cheats, uses or otherwise pisses me off. Those Great Unwashed can fuck right off.

Seems fair.

And probably Golden Rulish, when all is said and done.

Once you know they're jerks, the way you want to be done unto by them is by leaving you alone, so you leave them alone.

That's superficially similar to the masochist case, but the difference is that when dealing with people who do not treat you right, there's no mutually beneficial agreement possible. Instead, you do the best possible alternative, which is that neither side gets anything from the other, but is free to pursue happiness elsewhere.

The Golden Rule is harder to apply in cases where people are actively attempting to harm you, but with some semantic gymnastics it can be done.

[Meadmaker]

"He who is last shall be first" is a good one. We get the idea, even without religion, but for followers of Christ, or any believers in life after death in general, trying to be last in line on this mortal coil would be like trying to be first in line...wouldn't it? If i was caught fighting my way to be first in line, and chastised for it, i would explain to the 'angel' that i was trying to be last in line in the promised land...which surely matters more than this world and it's rules.

i have lots of examples to bore you with, bit i'd like to hear others, if possible.

In this case, though, Jesus wasn't giving people a moral imperative. He was just telling them how things were going to turn out.

One of the elements of Jesus, or Horus, or whoever is the post-death judge, is that they could tell if you were sincere. Horus had the scales. If you were trying to become rich and famous in order to help people, he could weigh your heart accurately. If you tried to deceive him, it wouldn't work. He just looks at the scales and sees you are a phony, and does whatever Egyptian gods did to bad people after they died.

[arthwollipot]

Fed them to the crocodile god, I believe.

[Admin]

One I like is "Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you."

You got it wrong.

It's "Do others before they do you."