Schism in 3...2...1

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Meadmaker
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Schism in 3...2...1

Post by Meadmaker »

VATICAN CITY, Dec 18 (Reuters) - The Vatican said on Monday in a landmark ruling approved by Pope Francis that Roman Catholic priests can administer blessings to same-sex couples as long as they are not part of regular Church rituals or liturgies.

A document from the Vatican's doctrinal office, which effectively reversed a declaration the same body had issued in 2021, said such blessings would not legitimise irregular situations but be a sign that God welcomes all.

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It is the biggest new. I is the smallest news. It's a huge change for the Catholic Church, but the Catholic Church isn't all that relevant anymore.

Looks like Frances is trying to modernize. This will not be welcomed by the rank and file, because everyone who would have liked it has already left the church.


The thing I don't get is that they said it would not "legitimze irregular situations", but is a sign that "God welcomes all".


I remember those CCD classes from my youth. If I remember right, God doesn't welcome all. He even made a place called Hell for people who aren't welcome, and that included queers. It sure seems like, if God welcomes all, that kind of legitimizes those...."Irregular situations".

I think maybe God welcomes all those who put envelopes in the basket, and they thought backing down might increase collections.

Anyway, it should be interesting.
Meadmaker
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Re: Schism in 3...2...1

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Reading further, it seems like it's extremely limited. A priest isn't so much blessing the union as blessing the people in the union. Sort of a "Bless the sinners, not the sin" strategy.

I think it will be too much for the conservatives, and not enough for the liberals. The poor Vatican just doesn't know where to go.

When it's all said and done, it's just one step closer to irrelevance for the Pope. I think the Pope will end up like the King of England. He will get to keep the fancy house and nice paintings, so long as he brings in tourist dollars.
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arthwollipot
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Re: Schism in 3...2...1

Post by arthwollipot »

Meadmaker wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 8:28 pmI think it will be too much for the conservatives, and not enough for the liberals.
I think this is pretty accurate. I don't think it will precipitate a schism though. The church hasn't had a proper schism since the 16th century (minor splinter groups notwithstanding).
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grayman
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Re: Schism in 3...2...1

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Re: Schism in 3...2...1

Post by Admin »

Small steps are good.

Franky has been good for a pope.
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arthwollipot
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Re: Schism in 3...2...1

Post by arthwollipot »

True, but the Pope is still Catholic.
Meadmaker
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Re: Schism in 3...2...1

Post by Meadmaker »

arthwollipot wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 10:04 pm
Meadmaker wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 8:28 pmI think it will be too much for the conservatives, and not enough for the liberals.
I think this is pretty accurate. I don't think it will precipitate a schism though. The church hasn't had a proper schism since the 16th century (minor splinter groups notwithstanding).
I must admit when I read the first article, I thought it was more significant than it turned out to be. I thought it was an actual blessing of the union itself.

It turns out not to be quite that. The priests are forbidden to do anything that would in any way suggest that the union is anything remotely like marriage, or even recognizing a union at all. It's just saying that two people can show up to a priest, and ask for a blessing, and he can bless them even if they are only doing it because they're having sex with each other. He's not even acknowledging their "couple" status. He's just giving two people a blessing.

I often wonder if the Catholic Church can survive without regulating sex. Most people today don't believe that priests can cure disease or make crops grow. When it comes to big sins like theft and murder, everyone knows those are bad and you don't need a church to tell you that. What do they have left? So, they still tell people that the only permissible sex is one man + one woman, in a lifelong commitment consecrated by a priest, and they even stick with the birth control thing, but they know that no one really buys into it any more. They know that the couple who shows up to be married has been living together for the last year. They know that somehow Catholic families only have two kids despite seeming like they actually like each other. They won't abide divorce, except that a lot of priests these days are divorced men.

I think that if the Pope actually went to the level of blessing of same sex unions, i.e. in any way recognizing and condoning the existence of the union, and wishing the couple happiness within the union, that would be too much, and there actually would be a significant schism. Perhaps not. Perhaps there would just be a massive decline in membership as Catholics turn to various forms of protestants. It looks like that's still in the realm of hypothetical, though.
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Re: Schism in 3...2...1

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Meadmaker wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 12:10 am I think that if the Pope actually went to the level of blessing of same sex unions, i.e. in any way recognizing and condoning the existence of the union, and wishing the couple happiness within the union, that would be too much, and there actually would be a significant schism. Perhaps not. Perhaps there would just be a massive decline in membership as Catholics turn to various forms of protestants. It looks like that's still in the realm of hypothetical, though.
Going by the schism in the Church of England over gay marriage, I have no doubt the Holy Romans would implode, hence it will never happen.
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Re: Schism in 3...2...1

Post by Meadmaker »

Apparently the Methodists are schisming as well. I never knew much about Methodists. They were just those middle of the road generic churchgoers. However, they have a union of congregations, and the people who run that sort of thing got a bit too liberal on the LGBTQIAA2S+ side, so about 25% of the congregations have left that union.

A schism in Methodists doesn't have the same excitement about it, though.
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arthwollipot
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Re: Schism in 3...2...1

Post by arthwollipot »

Here, the Methodists joined with the Presbyterian and Congregationalist churches to form the Uniting Church, which is one of the more progressive Christian churches in the country. And it still has issues with the support of gay marriage.
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