A very depressing video from Gaza

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Meadmaker
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A very depressing video from Gaza

Post by Meadmaker »

This board is mostly lightweight stuff, but this just struck me. It's a bit depressing. Well.....more than a bit, really.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wtdO2e5vwU


It's a young woman, 23 years old, describing her life in Gaza right now. It's not good.

But I must confess, what truly depressed me was the last line of her statement.

In case anyone wants to watch it before reading my commentary, I'm going to put my commentary in the first reply. Just in case the link doesn't work (I've never posted a youtube link here) , the title is

AJ Exclusive: Interview with displaced Palestinian in Gaza

AJ is Al Jazeera. It's from the Al Jazeera English youtube channel.
Meadmaker
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Re: A very depressing video from Gaza

Post by Meadmaker »

So.....what's so depressing about it?

If you didn't watch it, she describes a very hard life. She didn't mention anyone in her family killed, so that's a plus. She lost her three cats, but saved the dog. She's living, along with several family members, in the south of the Gaza Strip, in an area with no water or electricity. She avoids eating so she doesn't have to go to the bathroom. Life kinda sucks for her.

And then, the last thing she says, is that we must not forget that it's our land, from the river to the sea.

That's from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. All of it. It's her people's land.

How can there be peace? Ever?

The Jews think it's their land. Many of them even believe God gave it to them, The Arabs think it's their land. This 23 year old woman who has never lived in the place that most maps today call "israel" is telling the world that that place belongs to Palestinians. I'm not sure why. Certainly Palestinians used to live there, and some still do. She didn't, but maybe her grandparents did. Maybe her parents, though that's not as likely. She doesn't say if she's a Muslim, but odds are she is. There's a rock in that place where Muhammad once took off from to go to Heaven and talk to God. That means the land ought to be held by Muslims, right? I mean, not just that rock, but the whole place, from the river to the sea.

In my humble opinion, the state of Israel should never have been created. Nothing good has come of it. And yet, it happened. However, 75 years later, a whole bunch of people, including this 23 year old womanm, want to correct that mistake by removing that name from the map. What do you suppose would happen to the people who currently live on that patch of map if her and her people were to succeed in getting back "their" land? How would that work?

We have a thread about "Planet America" to talk about the weird and wacky things that go on in my home nation, but say what you like about us, we really are free. We might truly be the most free place in the world, but if we aren't, we are very close. The Jews and Arabs that live over in that place on the East coast of the Mediterranean could learn a lot from us. What would happen if they all got together and decided that maybe everyone should have equal rights, and freedom of speech, and freedom of religion? I think that sounds like a good idea.

Sadly, darned near nobody over there wants that, because that land, from the river to the sea, is "our" land.

For some definition of "our"
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Admin
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Re: A very depressing video from Gaza

Post by Admin »

The whole situation is just fucking sickening.

Both sides are insane cunts who want the other side dead, and a couple of million civilians are caught in the crossfire.

There isn't an answer as far as I can tell. Israel is going to solve the problem by flattening Gaza and letting the people starve.

Effective, if somewhat genocidal.

If you're looking at ISF at all you'll have seen my take on it.
Meadmaker
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Re: A very depressing video from Gaza

Post by Meadmaker »

The thing I find so depressing about it, is that I don't see a good course of action.

I don't see things exactly like you expressed. I don't think the Israeli side wants to kill all the Arabs. At least, the people in charge of Israel don't want to kill all the Arabs. I think they're indifferent to killing them, but I don't think it's a goal. On the other hand, when it comes to the leadership of Hamas, I think they really do want to kill all the Jews. I think they would find it acceptable to exile all of them, but I think that's a compromise position.

One way or another, the Hamas leadership wants them gone, and gone in such a way that they can never come back. From the river to the sea.

So what is Israel to do? It seems like the leadership has decided that they must destroy Hamas, including killing all the leaders and as many fighters as possible. And collateral damage? (i.e. civilians) I don't think Netanyahu is much concerned about that, and he might even think a bit of collateral damage is a good thing.

And then what? Some dead Jews. Lots of dead Arabs, and the survivors really pissed off, and nothing has changed.

How do you get to the point where the Arabs find something acceptable, without throwing all the Jews out of the region? (And that
is being generous. I think the people in charge in Gaza would just rather kill all of the Jews.) We can talk about bad things done by Jews or Arabs, whether it's a ridiculous "settlement" policy, or a day of murder, rape, and general mayhem. Maybe we can figure out how to compare atrocities side by side and figure out which is worse? But how do they get from where we are to, "Maybe we could save some money if we didn't buy all these weapons to blow those guys up?"

The Israeli Jews aren't going anywhere, and the Palestinian Arabs will settle for nothing less than making the land of Israel Judenfrei. As long as young Arab women want all their land, from the river to the sea, back, I don't see how to get out of that position.
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Re: A very depressing video from Gaza

Post by President Bush »

When you think that you´ve lost everything you find out you can always lose a little more.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/02/worl ... tlers.html
Meadmaker
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Re: A very depressing video from Gaza

Post by Meadmaker »

President Bush wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2023 11:47 pm When you think that you´ve lost everything you find out you can always lose a little more.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/02/worl ... tlers.html
Paywall.

But since it includes the word "settlers", I assume it's about Jews doing something stupid.

How are these people "settling" anything? Maybe in 1950, or even 1970, but today?

The pictures I have seen of some of the "settlements" are apartment buildings. State subsidized segregated housing.

(You may notice I usually refer to "Jews" and "Arabs" more commonly than "Israeli" or "Palestinian". "Israeli" would include all citizens of Israel including the 20% or so that are Arab, but I don't think there are any of those in the "sellements", or the army. At least, last time I checked many years ago, Arabs weren't allowed to join the IDF. Meanwhile, "Palestinian" is kind of a questionablee term as well.

I wonder how they tell who is an Arab and who is a Jew? Ancestry, languge, processing fees? I really don't know. Are people registered over there? I mean, i know that they keep pretty much separated, one might even say "aparth", but even over there young people's hearts are not always constrained by law or custom, and where the heart goes, the gonads will follow and there will be babies.)

ETA: After brief googling, I see that Arab citizens are allowed to enlist in the IDF, but are not drafted the way that Jewish citizens are. I don;t know about other minorities.
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President Bush
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Re: A very depressing video from Gaza

Post by President Bush »

Meadmaker wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 12:04 am
President Bush wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2023 11:47 pm When you think that you´ve lost everything you find out you can always lose a little more.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/02/worl ... tlers.html
Paywall.

But since it includes the word "settlers", I assume it's about Jews doing something stupid.

How are these people "settling" anything? Maybe in 1950, or even 1970, but today?

The pictures I have seen of some of the "settlements" are apartment buildings. State subsidized segregated housing.

(You may notice I usually refer to "Jews" and "Arabs" more commonly than "Israeli" or "Palestinian". "Israeli" would include all citizens of Israel including the 20% or so that are Arab, but I don't think there are any of those in the "sellements", or the army. At least, last time I checked many years ago, Arabs weren't allowed to join the IDF. Meanwhile, "Palestinian" is kind of a questionablee term as well.

I wonder how they tell who is an Arab and who is a Jew? Ancestry, languge, processing fees? I really don't know. Are people registered over there? I mean, i know that they keep pretty much separated, one might even say "aparth", but even over there young people's hearts are not always constrained by law or custom, and where the heart goes, the gonads will follow and there will be babies.)

ETA: After brief googling, I see that Arab citizens are allowed to enlist in the IDF, but are not drafted the way that Jewish citizens are. I don;t know about other minorities.
It was an article about settler violence against Palestinians in the West Bank, other side of Israel from Gaza. Here´s a little bit:
Last weekend, Bilal Mohammad Saleh, a Palestinian sidewalk vendor of sage and thyme, went out with his family to pick olives.

It is olive harvesting season in the West Bank, and Mr. Saleh was helping pluck the fruit from the gnarled trees that his family has owned for generations.

Then, four armed Jewish settlers showed up, witnesses said. They started yelling, and the olive pickers stopped what they were doing and began to run.

But Mr. Saleh forgot his phone.

“I’ll be right back,” he told his wife.

Two gunshots rang out, and in an instant, Mr. Saleh, who was known for his love of fresh leaves and being a fun dad, was face down in the olive grove, dead.

While the world’s attention has fallen on Gaza, violence in the West Bank, a much bigger and more complex Palestinian-majority area, is hitting its highest levels in years.

Some of the specific incidents, like the killing in the olive grove, reflect a longstanding problem in the West Bank that has gotten much worse since the Oct. 7 terrorist attacks: Heavily armed extremist settlers have operated with impunity for years, many Palestinians say, and now their assaults are becoming bolder, deadlier and nonstop.

Experienced observers say the sharp increase in violence is part of a broader campaign to scare Palestinians off their land that has been allowed to accelerate amid Israel’s enraged and wounded mood. Since Oct. 7, settler violence has displaced nearly 1,000 Palestinians, including entire herding communities.
From an article today:
An Israeli government request for 24,000 assault rifles from the United States is drawing scrutiny from American lawmakers and some State Department officials who fear the weapons might end up in the hands of settlers and civilian militias trying to force Palestinians from land in the West Bank, where violence has been surging, U.S. officials say.

The three proposed tranches of semiautomatic and automatic rifles are valued at $34 million and are being ordered directly from American gunmakers, but they require State Department approval and congressional notification. Israel says the rifles would be used by the national police force, but has also indicated that they could be given to civilians, people familiar with the weapons orders told The New York Times.

The State Department gave informal notification of the sale last week to congressional committees, which ignited concerns and prompted requests for the department to ask Israel tougher questions about how it intends to use the arms. Within the department, officials working on human rights issues have expressed reservations, while those overseeing weapons sales intend to approve the orders and announce them in the coming days, U.S. officials say.

The Israeli police are seeking to bolster their weapons arsenal after officials pledged to supply thousands of weapons to Israeli civilians in at least 1,000 towns and cities, including Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank. About 500,000 Israelis have moved to settlements there over many years, which, along with military checkpoints, fences and other measures of the Israeli government occupation, keep the area’s 2.7 million Palestinians living in separate small enclaves.

Although much of the global criticism of Israel’s recent actions has centered on its airstrikes in the Gaza Strip, which health ministry officials there say have killed nearly 10,000 people, President Biden and his top aides are increasingly worried about rising violence in the West Bank.

Even before the Oct. 7 Hamas terrorist attacks set off the current war in Gaza, violence by Israeli settlers in the West Bank who aim to force Palestinians from strategic tracts of land had risen well above the level of recent years.

U.S. officials attributed that to the encouragement of settlers by the far-right government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and statements by some Israeli officials supporting the annexation of the West Bank. Since Oct. 7, more than 150 Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank — nearly equal to the number in all of 2022, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry.

Most of the killings have taken place during encounters with the Israeli military, but some have been at the hands of gun-bearing civilians. Mr. Biden said on Oct. 25 that violence by “extremist settlers” was “pouring gasoline on fire.” Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken raised concerns with Israeli leaders during his trip to Tel Aviv on Friday and spoke about the problem with Mahmoud Abbas, the head of the Palestinian Authority, in a meeting in Ramallah on Sunday.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/us/p ... -bank.html
No lack of US evangelists that love this and cheer Israel because they believe it is fulfilling end-times prophecy. I can´t wait to get the hell out of here.
Meadmaker
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Re: A very depressing video from Gaza

Post by Meadmaker »

I'm no fan of Joe Biden, in general, but at least he is saying the right things about the settler problem. Or, at least he is saying something. I don't know if any previous president actually openly criticized settler policy, except maybe in slight, mamby pamby, "We need to find a solution" sort of terms.

I don't recall anyone else referring to "throwing gasoline on the fire", or anything like that at all.

But here's my problem. Suppose Israel did the right thing when it comes to settlements. I'm not sure exactly what that is, but it seems to me like maybe it is "No more settlements", and "Dismantle existing settlements". Israelis/Jews should be allowed to buy land, but that's "buy", not "steal". Certainly not, "Kill anyone who causes any trouble near a settlement". So, suppose they did all that. What would happen?

Would the Arabs give up "the river to the sea"?


Israel should do it anyway. i.e give up the "settlement" thing. It's a problem, and to hell with whether or not it will result in lasting peace. Murder is murder. Israel should not let its citizens get away with murder, even if the people murdered would gladly have done the same to the Jews.

But then again, in my perfect world, Israeli citizens should be allowed to buy land in the West Bank area, if someone is willing to sell it. What do you suppose happens to any Palestinian who sells land to a Jew?

ETA: I didn't know it was official policy:

"In April 2009, a Chief Islamic Judge of the Palestinian Authority reminded of an existing fatwa that bans Palestinians from selling property to Jews, which is considered high treason and punishable by death."
Last edited by Meadmaker on Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Meadmaker
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Re: A very depressing video from Gaza

Post by Meadmaker »

And....there has been an arrest in the case of the murdered Palestinian olive farmer.
stanky
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Re: A very depressing video from Gaza

Post by stanky »

It's surreal and gross. My neighbor went to the protest in D.C. and was dismayed at the speakers, ranting about the same thing as usual, seeing nothing change. It feels too primitive a situation for modern man; really immature shit. Maybe we could give a state to the Israelis. A Dakota. Call it Zion.
I don't think it's a right to have an ancestral homeland. Who has that anymore? Who can even claim a state (U.S.) that is truly one's homeland? We shuttle about; get conquered; explore; exploit...why get zealous about one spot in time?
From what i've seen, the Israeli Jews are hardly united around Bibi's approach. Lots of in-fighting; cops beating protesters. Israeli's looking like jack-booted thugs. Us drooling over the arms sales and the unstoppable march to war.

ugh.
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