A very depressing video from Gaza

[Meadmaker]

Israel is committing atrocities, apparently, Such as......?

Here, this might help:

There have been five Israel-Gaza wars since 2008. These charts show the latest one is by far the deadliest

It doesn't help in the least.

War sucks. People die. This includes civilians. Men, women, children, old people, doctors, nurses, everyone in the area of a war might become "collateral damage". That is not what we mean by "atrocities" in wartime.

Atrocities occur when one side deliberately kill or harm non-combattants, not as a side-effect of an attack, but as the primary target. It gets a little difficult to judge in some cases, if you deliberately kill people who are materially supporting the enemy, or when civilians are targetted, but with a legitimate military aim. People have debated for years, and will debate for many more years, whether Dresden or Nagasaki were atrocities. On the other hand, there is no debate about Auschwitz and My Lai. Those were atrocities.

The attacks on kibbutzim and the dance party on October 7 were atrocities. The kidnap and continued holding of civilians are atrocities. Attacking the place where those fighters came from in an attempt to remove Hamas leaders from power, or in an attempt to free those still held hostage is not an atrocity, even though civilian casualties were inevitable, and more are inevitable in the future. Those things are not atrocities. They are not war crimes.

It is sometimes said that war is, by itself, an atrocity, or that "war crimes" is reduncant. However, only a fool would say that in all cases. Starting a war is a crime. Participating in one is not. This war began when Hamas sent hundreds of soldiers, if the terrorists could be dignified by that name, into Israel to murder and kidnap civilians. That was an act of war and an atrocity, and Israel is blameless for continuing that war and bringing it to the point of its origin in order to remove Hamas from power and attempt to save the lives of the hostages.


However, Israel is not blameless if they commit atrocities in the course of conducting the war. Israel's cause is just, but having a just cause does not mean that it is acceptable to commit atrocities during the conduct of a just war. If they were to deliberately kill non-combattants without a legitimate military objective, that would be an atrocity. Body count alone is not an atrocity.

[Admin]

Israel's cause is just...

Or is it actually just a huge over-reaction to being caught with their pants down?

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-773974

[arthwollipot]

Atrocities occur when one side deliberately kill or harm non-combattants, not as a side-effect of an attack, but as the primary target.... If they were to deliberately kill non-combattants without a legitimate military objective, that would be an atrocity. Body count alone is not an atrocity.

If you don't think that's exactly what's happening here, then sorry but you are very wrong.

A few weeks ago Israel's ambassador to Australia was speaking here in Canberra, and among the things he said was that when Hamas used a location to host military assets, then that location becomes a military target. It doesn't matter if it's a bunker, a warehouse, a hospital or a primary school. The presence of civilians in these locations is absolutely irrelevant to this calculation. And given the population density of Gaza, everywhere that Hamas uses is full of civilians.

So yes, Israel is deliberately targeting civilians, because civilians are everywhere that it deems a military target.

[Meadmaker]

Atrocities occur when one side deliberately kill or harm non-combattants, not as a side-effect of an attack, but as the primary target.... If they were to deliberately kill non-combattants without a legitimate military objective, that would be an atrocity. Body count alone is not an atrocity.

(emphasis added by Meadmaker)

If you don't think that's exactly what's happening here, then sorry but you are very wrong.

A few weeks ago Israel's ambassador to Australia was speaking here in Canberra, and among the things he said was that when Hamas used a location to host military assets, then that location becomes a military target. It doesn't matter if it's a bunker, a warehouse, a hospital or a primary school. The presence of civilians in these locations is absolutely irrelevant to this calculation. And given the population density of Gaza, everywhere that Hamas uses is full of civilians.

I absolutely agree with the ambassador.

So yes, Israel is deliberately targeting civilians, because civilians are everywhere that it deems a military target.

What I believe is that Israel is deliberately targetting Hamas, and is very much aware that civilians will die as a consequence.


Every miliary commander in all wars ever has had to consider the effects of their military actions on the civiilan population, and do a very cold calculus of how many of their soldiers and or citizens they are willing to risk in order to preseve the lives of enemy civilians, or even enemy soldiers who have ceased to fight. This has beomed more prominent as explosives have becom the primary weapon of war. It sucks. If we blow up that paritular building, we know we will kill a dozen civilians. If we don't blow it up, a sniper might get one of our soldiers. What to do? I wish I had answers.

I don't get to sit down and chat with IDF commanders or Israeli politicians. If I did, I suspect I would be critical of their methods. I suspect I would find them too callous about the prospect of Palestinian civilian casualties. However, the mere existence of civilian casualties is not enough to make me say that Israel is committing atrocities. It's a war. The Israelis are being shot at. Bad things are goong to happen.

[Meadmaker]

Israel's cause is just...

Or is it actually just a huge over-reaction to being caught with their pants down?

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-773974

Their cause (removing Hamas and freeing the hostages) is just.

Whether the methods they use in pursuit of that cause are just is a more difficult question to answer.

[arthwollipot]

Their cause (removing Hamas and freeing the hostages) is just.

Whether the methods they use in pursuit of that cause are just is a more difficult question to answer.

Israel doesn't care about freeing the hostages. We do not negotiate with terrorists. Those hostages are already dead.

[arthwollipot]

I absolutely agree with the ambassador.

Okay then.

What I believe is that Israel is deliberately targetting Hamas, and is very much aware that civilians will die as a consequence.

It is a distinction without a difference. The truth is that Israel is deliberately targeting locations where they know there are civilians. Hamas is deliberately turning civilian locations into military ones, probably in order to use civilians as human shields in the mistaken idea that Israel cares about things like that. Israel does not. Israel will shoot the hostage in order to shoot the hostage taker. This is deliberately targeting civilians in my book. You cannot say that Israel is not guilty of war crimes, any more than you can say that Hamas is not.

[Meadmaker]

I absolutely agree with the ambassador.

Okay then.

What I believe is that Israel is deliberately targetting Hamas, and is very much aware that civilians will die as a consequence.

It is a distinction without a difference.

I think there's a big difference.

The truth is that Israel is deliberately targeting locations where they know there are civilians.

True.

Hamas is deliberately turning civilian locations into military ones, probably in order to use civilians as human shields in the mistaken idea that Israel cares about things like that. Israel does not.

True

Israel will shoot the hostage in order to shoot the hostage taker.

Partially true. I think that if the hostages are Israeli, they will make an attempt, but there's a limit. If the IDF has to choose between losing the lives of their hostages, and leaving Hamas in power, they will lose the lives of the hostages.

And that's a good decision.

You might have been referring to the Palestinian human shields as hostages. In that case, Israel will shoot the hostage (i.e. the Palestinian human shield) in order to shoot the hostage taker.

And that's ....an ok decision, but might have to be judged on a case by case basis.

This is deliberately targeting civilians in my book. You cannot say that Israel is not guilty of war crimes, any more than you can say that Hamas is not.

"War crimes" is a term that has meaning. It isn't just killing people, or even killing more people than absolutely necessary. There are rules and precedents that define war crimes. Hamas is, without question, guilty of war crimes. I haven't seen any proof that the IDF has committed war crimes. I don't think anyone in either the political or miliary command of the Israeli forces will be at The Hague when this is over. (Not that they would present themselves for trial, but maybe they could be tried in absentia, I don't know if the ICC does that sort of thing.

There is a principle of "proportional response" that some people will try to invoke in accusing Israel of war crimes, and they might even be correct. I'm certainly willing to listen to any explanation based on the idea that their response is so extreme that it constitutes a war crime based on the idea of disproportionate response. However, the idea that taking actions which are known to cause civilian deaths is a war crime is a faulty one, both in law and in ethics.

What's the alternative? Leave Hamas in power? There is no peace possible. That's what I found so depressing when I saw the video at the start of the thread. "It's our land, from the river to the sea." There's no basis for peace there.

[stanky]

Ever since we learned how to prevent war, the only rational explanation for it is as a means to war profiteering. Israel is a welfare state of the U.S. as per their military might. It was a ridiculous place to start a country in the first place. We knew that. We know that stealing is wrong, and it has become much wronger, ever since we learned how to provide enough for everyone. Besides the selling of weapons, young men do like to fight, without regard to the circumstance. Others have no choice. But the reason for the mayhem is vague and usually pointless. As we swear off oil, wars over that commodity have become more sinister. It's fucking idiotic. Religious wars take the cake. We remain immature on purpose, even, as an expression of our prowess. The U.S. is ate-up with macho posturing.

Another cause for war is populations reproduce beyond the carrying capacity of their zone. Thin out the herd the hard way, when sensible birth control would have cut it off at the pass. We still don't have the collective will to achieve a sustainable population. We've managed to prop up this bunch through rape and pillage...of the soil, and enormous in-puts of energy. Now the rent comes due. We remain stupid because the greed masters and sociopaths want us that way. Easier to exploit. We always know what to do to prevent our collective woes, but we choose not to...even now.

meanwhile, 2 states.
what other choice is there?

[arthwollipot]

There is a principle of "proportional response" that some people will try to invoke in accusing Israel of war crimes, and they might even be correct. I'm certainly willing to listen to any explanation based on the idea that their response is so extreme that it constitutes a war crime based on the idea of disproportionate response. However, the idea that taking actions which are known to cause civilian deaths is a war crime is a faulty one, both in law and in ethics.

What Israel is doing amounts to collective punishment, which is a war crime.