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Meadmaker wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 12:06 pmI doubt that they say, "How can I be more evil today?"...

True, objective "evil" doesn't exist outside of D&D. That's why using the word can be problematic. Even if someone does something for their own benefit, they do it because they truly believe that it's the best thing they can do in the circumstances. Either they think that with more power they can help more of the right kind of people, or in some cases (not mentioning any names) because they truly believe that they deserve it.

arthwollipot wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:00 pm Even if someone does something for their own benefit, they do it because they truly believe that it's the best thing they can do in the circumstances. Either they think that with more power they can help more of the right kind of people, or in some cases (not mentioning any names) because they truly believe that they deserve it.

I´m sure that makes this entirely understandable.

The only way shit like that becomes understandable is that humans are inclined to do bad shit based on any fucking thing under the sun: Politics, religion, emotion (love is the number one motivator for murder IMHO), shall I go on?

Again: it doesn't matter what the perp thinks is good or bad. They do evil. Full stop. Period.

And that makes no goddamned difference. They are still doing evil.

Evil is evil. Those who do it, knowing they are doing it are psychopaths. Those who do it thinking they are doing a greater good are delusional.

It is still evil and their intent does not change that one fucking iota.

Now Arth, if you want to give the delusional a break, go right ahead. But I doubt there's anything you can say that will change my mind on this.



But thanks for playing.

If you're of the opinion that motivations don't matter, and the only relevant thing is the thing done in the end, that's fine, I can understand that. But I do think that motivation matters.

arthwollipot wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:00 pm

Meadmaker wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 12:06 pmI doubt that they say, "How can I be more evil today?"...

True, objective "evil" doesn't exist outside of D&D. That's why using the word can be problematic. Even if someone does something for their own benefit, they do it because they truly believe that it's the best thing they can do in the circumstances. Either they think that with more power they can help more of the right kind of people, or in some cases (not mentioning any names) because they truly believe that they deserve it.

I don't know. Did Ted Bundy think the world was a better place after he killed a woman or did he know that, in general, it was worse, but he only cared about himself?

For world leaders, it's a little bit easier in most cases. Dr. Kissinger almost certainly believed that the world would be a better place when he got involved in wars.

Then you come to our favorite symbol of evil, Adolf Hitler. Did he think the world would be better off if he killed the Jews? I think he probably did. And yet, I judge Hitler and Kissinger very differently on that front. Even if Hitler thought he was making things better, it was better in a purely selfish way. Kissinger had good intentions but sometimes things didn't go as he planned and all he accomplished was war and suffering. Hitler didn't have good intentions at all. Hitler wanted to take what other people had, and enslave or kill them. It seems qualitatively different, even if, in some sense, both of them thought they were doing good deeds.

Which is to say that I agree motivation matters.

It's just that some motivations might be judged as evil, regardless of how the person performing the act views his own motivation.



Relating this to "Planet America" I think that lots of people, including Henry Kissinger, used military might or American influence to start wars or depose legitimate governments. I don't judge those leaders extremely harshly, though, because I think in every instance, or at least every instance I can think of, they really were acting with good intentions. I think they believed the world would be a better place. Sometimes those beliefs were naive but I think they were sincere in every case I know of.

Conquerors on the other hand whether they were Hitler, or Victoria, or Genghis Khan, are just trying to subjugate their enemies for their own benefit. I don't cut them as much slack as I do some American who thinks that fighting communism is important enough to sacrifice some people for the cause.

Or that great American hero, Orenthal James Simpson.

I wonder if he thought he was making the world a better place?

Alas, he died without ever fulfilling his life's work of finding the true killers.

Now there's an American story, for sure.

i wonder if the universe is evil?
It seems good, in a way, that it simply IS...
but evil, in that it (allegedly) comes to a crunching halt.
It sure is violent. Imagine a super-nova!
And that innocent family of molecules that was in the way.

atoms of hydrogen, crushed into helium, at temperatures and pressures that are painful to watch.
in the beginning, god said 'let there be light', and in the end, he scheduled a heat death of the universe.
(It's a new, hybridized god)

What wrankles my chaps is how these nasty bastards manage to live so long. Kissenger was, what, 100?
Jesus, 33? That averages to 66.5

Which is the temperature, in farenheit, in my room at this moment!

see? there is intelligent design.

Meadmaker wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:27 pm Which is to say that I agree motivation matters.

It's just that some motivations might be judged as evil, regardless of how the person performing the act views his own motivation.



Relating this to "Planet America" I think that lots of people, including Henry Kissinger, used military might or American influence to start wars or depose legitimate governments. I don't judge those leaders extremely harshly, though, because I think in every instance, or at least every instance I can think of, they really were acting with good intentions. I think they believed the world would be a better place. Sometimes those beliefs were naive but I think they were sincere in every case I know of.

Acting with good intentions in Chile from 1970-73? Backing Indonesia and illegally sending weapons in the invasion and annexation of East Timor in 1975?

Characterizing that behavior as sincere is kind of unhinged far as I´m concerned.

Conquerors on the other hand whether they were Hitler, or Victoria, or Genghis Khan, are just trying to subjugate their enemies for their own benefit. I don't cut them as much slack as I do some American who thinks that fighting communism is important enough to sacrifice some people for the cause.

You cut Hitler less slack than Henry Kissinger?

Now that you mention it, I think I cut John Wayne Gacy less slack than Jeffrey Dahmer.

stanky wrote: ↑Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:35 pm i wonder if the universe is evil?
It seems good, in a way, that it simply IS...
but evil, in that it (allegedly) comes to a crunching halt.
It sure is violent. Imagine a super-nova!
And that innocent family of molecules that was in the way.

atoms of hydrogen, crushed into helium, at temperatures and pressures that are painful to watch.
in the beginning, god said 'let there be light', and in the end, he scheduled a heat death of the universe.
(It's a new, hybridized god)

What wrankles my chaps is how these nasty bastards manage to live so long. Kissenger was, what, 100?
Jesus, 33? That averages to 66.5

Which is the temperature, in farenheit, in my room at this moment!

see? there is intelligent design.

Build a fire dipshit.