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arthwollipot wrote: ↑Mon Aug 19, 2024 8:52 am Source please.

https://x.com/mindsci/status/1823025214671683909


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olymp ... somes.html

The Daily Mail. Really.

On this week's episode of the Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast, they spoke at length about framing one's message. Take a look at how that Daily Mail article is framed and tell me it's not trying to push an agenda. I mean...

Mexican boxer Brianda Tamara Cruz said she was lucky to escape with her life after sharing a ring with the Algerian at the Golden Belt Series Finals in Guadalajara in 2022.

Lucky to escape with her life??? Give me a break. There's a reason people call it the Daily Fail.

And as for the (unsourced) interview transcript, I do not think it says what you think it says. Relevant excerpt:

...He confirmed that Imane is indeed a woman, despite her karyotype and her testosterone level. He said: "There is a problem with her hormones, with her chromosomes, but she is a woman." That's all that mattered to us. We then worked with a doctor based in Algeria to monitor and regulate Imane's testosterone level, which is currently within the female norm. Tests clearly show that all her musculature and other qualities have been diminishing since then. Currently, she can be compared on a musculature and biological level to a woman-woman-woman.

Also, look at the comments. The first one I saw:

The refusal to believe the truth that Khelif is biologically male by this head trainer and the endocrinologist, is just staggering!
Biology obviously counts for nothing anymore

Clearly the article does not state that the trainer and endocrinologist said that she was biologically male, otherwise why would this ignorant fuck complain?

arthwollipot wrote: ↑Mon Aug 19, 2024 11:19 pm The Daily Mail. Really.

A predictable response.

The quote is 100% accurate, as you can see by reading the (sourced) interview. It's from Le Point.

The Daily Mail excerpted it from the interview, so I went to the full interview to make sure that it wasn't distorted by taking it out of context. Of course it is out of context, because it's an excerpt, but it isn't distorted. That's what he said. That is presumably what he meant.'

ETA: As for the rest of the article, it's not something I quoted from, nor something I think is important. The quote, though, gets to what Admin was getting at. She was 23 years old, and didn't know that, in the words of her coach, "she might not be a girl".

And as for the (unsourced) interview transcript, I do not think it says what you think it says. Relevant excerpt:

It says exactly what I think it says. The doctor says that Imane is indeed a woman. And what evidence does he give?

"For Imane, she was born a girl. She was raised as a girl. She has a girl's sensitivity."

I guess having a girl's sensitivity is importatnt for some purposes. I'm not sure I understand why, but he said it.

In the modern world, there are people, I'm pretty sure including you, that insist that a person can be a woman even if they have a fully functioning cock and balls that delivers sperm which fertilizes eggs. So, the doctor confirming that "She is indeed a woman" doesn't mean anything unless he also defines "woman".

(Correct me if I'm wrong on your definition of a woman. To me, men can't get pregnant and women can't fertilize anyone else's ova, but that's just my favored definition. I think you have used other definitions in the past.)

Imane Khelif is, by some definitions, a woman.

But should she be allowed to box in the women's division?


The argument to let her box in the women's division is almost a textbook example of "modus ponens", which is invariably taught on day one of formal logic classes, usually with an example about Socrates and mortality. In the boxing case, it goes like this:

All women should be allowed to box in the women's division.
Imane is a woman.
Therefore, Imane should be allowed to box in the women's division.

While it is a perfectly valid argument, in the formal logic sense, is it a sound argument?

I think there are issues with the truth of both premises.

Also, look at the comments.

Why would I bother? Is there information in them?

But since you posted it.

The refusal to believe the truth that Khelif is biologically male by this head trainer and the endocrinologist, is just staggering!
Biology obviously counts for nothing anymore

The author of the comment makes one mistake. We don't know whether the head trainer believes that Khelif is a biological male. We know he believes that Imane is a woman. He did not say she was a biological female. He did not say she was a biological male. His commentary was about her gender, not her biological sex.

Inamuch as so-called "biological sex" can be taken as a marker of anything at all.

It's irrelevant. She competed in the Olympics as a woman, and she won a gold medal.

Here. I thought you might like to know what she looks like when she's not boxing. From your own source.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olymp ... ender.html

arthwollipot wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 6:15 am Inamuch as so-called "biological sex" can be taken as a marker of anything at all.

Or, in the words of the commenter that you quoted earlier, "Biology obviously counts for nothing anymore."

I believe you called that commenter an "ignorant fuck".

Here. I thought you might like to know what she looks like when she's not boxing. From your own source.

I can't imagine why you would think that.

On second thought, I can imagine it. Indeed, I'm pretty sure why you might consider it relevant. However, that just demonstrates why this conversation is so difficult, not just here, but in society at large. Somehow you, and many others, think that this is about some sort of identity or gender expression or people's feelings ("girl's sensitivity", in the words of the coach).

It isn't.

arthwollipot wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 6:15 am Inamuch as so-called "biological sex" can be taken as a marker of anything at all.

*sigh*

I continue to fail to see why this subject is even an argument. Men are stronger than women, which is why we have women's events.

Women do not have XY chromosomes. Imane is clearly intersex. She has a vagina-like opening at the urethra, internal testes, no womb, no cervix, no ovaries. No that hasn't been proven, but I'm certain it's the case.

And testing isn't asking her to open her legs, it's asking to have a pin-prick blood test. End of story.

I said a few years ago that nothing short of a woman's death will put this subject to bed, and I have no doubt that outcome will happen.

This was just volleyball: https://wlos.com/news/local/volleyball- ... speaks-out

arthwollipot wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 6:15 amIt's irrelevant. She competed in the Olympics as a woman, and she won a gold medal.

Lance Armstrong won a heap of Tours de France. Winning doesn't make it right.

arthwollipot wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 6:15 amHere. I thought you might like to know what she looks like when she's not boxing. From your own source.

My first thought was, if she's such a chick, why does she need a makeover?

My second thought was, I've dated trans that are both better-looking and more feminine than Imane, but that's just sexist, so I won't bother mentioning it.

I was under the impession that they had given he/she/it a blood test and that's how the intersex business with the XY chromo was determined.

True or false? If false, responsible persons should ban he/she/it until such time as the test is done and the results come back negative for the XY shit.

As far as looking at 'her', I'd rather not. Looks like an ugly tranny of the fake tits and a dick variety, make-over or not.

sparks wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 5:40 pm True or false?

True.

Thanks MM. In that case, he has a clear biological advantage in such physical contests and shouldn't be allowed to compete.

sparks wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 5:40 pm I was under the impession that they had given he/she/it a blood test and that's how the intersex business with the XY chromo was determined.

True or false? If false, responsible persons should ban he/she/it until such time as the test is done and the results come back negative for the XY shit.

True or false? We don't know. The body that claimed to have done so - the IBA - is one of the most corrupt sporting bodies on the planet, headed up by a Russian evangelical Christian - Umar Kremlev, an obvious transphobe and homophobe. They won't release the results of the alleged testing, and they won't even say what kind or kinds of tests they gave her.

For the record, Kremlev is also on record as having said "the 2024 Olympic Games are outright sodomy and the destruction of traditional values throughout the world" so that gives you the flavour of what he's like. Outright sodomy. He lied about testosterone levels, first saying that they did not do testosterone tests, and then saying that Khalif had testosterone levels "like a man". He is not credible.

The IBA was suspended as an oversight organisation by the IOC in 2019 for rampant corruption. Everything the IBA and Kremlev claim is suspect. Personally I think they are outright lying because Kremlev thinks Khalif doesn't look enough like a woman and that offends his transphobic Christian sensibilities. I think Khalif should be suing him for transphobic hate speech, in addition to JK Rowling and Elon Musk.

Oh, did you hear? Khalif is suing JK Rowling and Elon Musk. JK hasn't been seen on Xitter since the suit was filed.

sparks wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 5:40 pmAs far as looking at 'her', I'd rather not. Looks like an ugly tranny of the fake tits and a dick variety, make-over or not.

You misogynistic fuck.