recogitare.com

President Bush wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 2:48 am

Virtually all of the references in their report concern the two previous administrations, the Morales and Áñez governments.

Here's 2024:
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2024/c ... Gender%2Db

Based on that description, I would rather live here.


ETA: More directly to the issue, a place where political opponents are imprisoned without trial stretches the definition of "democracy". So as an example of democracy without plutocracy, it is at best marginal, due to it's marginal fit within the definition of democracy.


Of course these things aren't pure black and white. A country can be more democratic or less democratic. In my humble opinion, assuming the Human Rights Watch descriptions are accurate, I believe the US is more democratic than Bolivia.

Meadmaker wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 11:00 am

President Bush wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 2:48 am

Virtually all of the references in their report concern the two previous administrations, the Morales and Áñez governments.

Here's 2024:
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2024/c ... Gender%2Db

Based on that description, I would rather live here.


ETA: More directly to the issue, a place where political opponents are imprisoned without trial stretches the definition of "democracy". So as an example of democracy without plutocracy, it is at best marginal, due to it's marginal fit within the definition of democracy.


Of course these things aren't pure black and white. A country can be more democratic or less democratic. In my humble opinion, assuming the Human Rights Watch descriptions are accurate, I believe the US is more democratic than Bolivia.

Meadmaker, that Human Rights Watch link you posted is a page that says "Bolivia Events of 2023".

That page looks like same page quoted in full in my post you just quoted.

Anyhow, concerning the part of your post I accented in red... when Evo Morales (another load of info linked there) was removed/resigned as president "at the request of the military" in 2019, the de facto administration of Jeanine Áñez was installed. At the time she said: "God has allowed the Bible to enter the Palace again".

After Luis Arce was democratically elected in 2020 the Bolivian government came to regard this, the interim government of Jeanine Áñez, as one that came to power through unconstitutional means, which might help to explain why she was arrested for conspiracy and sedition.

I assume that is the imprisoned political opponent you are referring to.

Anyhow, you've no need to feel defensive about which country is more democratic, the United States or Bolivia. I only brought up the subject of Bolivia in response to your challenge to show any modern democracy that doesn't have elements of plutocracy in it.

Meadmaker wrote: ↑Sat May 04, 2024 11:47 pm I would challenge you to show me any modern democracy that doesn't have elements of plutocracy in it.

It's a nice ride for a while, once you decide to max-out your credit cards. For that matter, it's a safer bet to be friends with the mob than to be their victim. In ww2, life is better being a Nazi than a Jew. More fun to eat the fruit than to pick it.
I'd rather live here as well, though a reckoning is in order. I don't see the world (for civilization) lasting much longer without a more global outlook. If we're serious and have any sense of ethical behavior, there neeeds to be a minimum standard of living.

How can we ignore the facts while promoting a way of life that can't work? Capitalism needs a dose of communism to survive, but that word has been destroyed beyond salvation by relentless propaganda. People (Americans, especially) would rather poke a knife into their eyeball to avoid any communism getting on themselves...yet, the definition of the big "C" is "government of the people, for the people, and by the people."
Same ol' thang.

Of course, both are prone to corruption or assault from without. The U.S. makes damn sure no commie nations will be tolerated. We're more than willing to slaughter endless peasants to prevent them from going commie. They do anyway because they can't begin to afford our lifestyle. Unbridled, unregulated capitalism has a very short shelf life. It's hostile to everything...including the bio-sphere itself.
Sure, a fun ride...relative to those on the exploited side of it. It's a life a crime before you get busted; driving twice the speed limit before you get popped; etc.

Hybridize. Ideology and race; poor and rich; commie and capitally.
Make amends. Reproduce less and more consciously; die younger until a sustainable population is achieved.
A change of heart can't be force fed, but we're positively doomed without it.

I'm grateful for where i live. Very. Nobody has even tried to kill me yet or steal my crops. It's fantastic. This piece of the planet is awe inspiring. Lucky guy. Born in America at the best of times.
And now we must re-group; figure out how to live well on 1/2, give that to them with none. Otherwise, how can we be serious?

Makes no difference that it will never work; being on a decent path makes the death march magical. It's fun to talk to insects.

Well said stank. Couldn't agree more.

Just sold our 2012 Nissan NV3500 one ton tall cargo van.

189,400 miles, still runs like a champ. First time since I think 1975 that I haven't owned a vehicle.

stanky wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 6:40 pm I don't see the world (for civilization) lasting much longer without a more global outlook. If we're serious and have any sense of ethical behavior, there neeeds to be a minimum standard of living.

I agree....but....

Do we have a better standard of living today, or when you were a child? I don't mean in America. I mean in the world. In China. In Bolivia. In Senegal. In India. In the world.

It's better now. How did it get that way?

We can make it better still, but in seeking to make our, i.e. humanity's, life better, let's look at what got us here.


And is it unsustainable? That's debatable. We certainly can't keep doing the exact same things we are doing right now, but we aren't doing the exact same tnings we did 50 years ago, either.


Things don't suck here. Things don't suck as much elsewhere compared to how miuch they used to suck.

MM, you've already been debunked on this argument.

It is bad form to march it out again without new supporting evidence.

President Bush wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 9:51 pm Just sold our 2012 Nissan NV3500 one ton tall cargo van.

189,400 miles, still runs like a champ. First time since I think 1975 that I haven't owned a vehicle.

That's gotta feel a bit strange. Adapting OK?

After I got myself prematurely retired it was actually quite nice to get in the truck only once or twice a month for that long (5 mile) journey to town. Now I worry about the thing not getting enough up time to keep it in good condition!

Meadmaker wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 11:00 amBased on that description, I would rather live here.

In a binary choice between America and Bolivia? Fuck yeah.

Meadmaker wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 11:00 amI believe the US is more democratic than Bolivia.

This is not a high bar.

sparks wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 10:41 pm MM, you've already been debunked on this argument.

It is bad form to march it out again without new supporting evidence.

If by "debunked" you mean "someone disagreed", yeah.