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Admin wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 12:35 am

stanky wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2024 8:08 pm without U.S. involvement, there would be no war in Ukraine.

There isn't an emoji available to express the correct response to something as insane as that statement.

Perhaps what he meant is that without US involvement, the war would be over by now.

Or even that it might never have started because there wouldn't be an independent Ukraine.

we broke our promise to not expand NATO into surrounding Russia.
we engineered the turmoil and then supplied the weapons.
why is Russia a threat? It's their turf. It's a proxy war. U.S./Russia.

Ukraine is not "Russian turf".

stanky wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 4:08 am we broke our promise to not expand NATO into surrounding Russia.
we engineered the turmoil and then supplied the weapons.
why is Russia a threat? It's their turf. It's a proxy war. U.S./Russia.

What Arth said.

To elaborate, the people of Ukraine do not seem to want to be ruled by a Russian dictator, and the Russian dictator has no right to rule them. They are not living on his turf.

It seems, though, that what you meant about no war without United States involvement was the second of my possible explanations of your statement. Wtihout the US, there would be no war, because there would be no indendent Ukraine. Putin and his successors would control all of it, because it's their turf.




I have no illusions that wars are not always fought for idealistic reasons. When the folks in the State Department, and White House, and Defense Department, and even various boardrooms of the military-industrial complex get together, they probably don't have the best interests of the Ukranian people at heart. They probably aren't motivated first and foremost by an effort to free people from oppression.

But they should be, and whether or not their motives are pure, there really are good guys and bad guys in this war, or at least one side is a lot better than the other, and our side, the US side, is backing the good guys.

stanky wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 4:08 am why is Russia a threat? It's their turf.

Breathtaking.

the u.s. is the good guys?
hardly.
read some recent history.
(If you can dip further than your preferred propaganda.)

stanky wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 5:17 pm the u.s. is the good guys?

Avoiding the point, mate?

You were going to explain how USA caused the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

stanky wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 5:17 pm the u.s. is the good guys?
hardly.
read some recent history.
(If you can dip further than your preferred propaganda.)

Certainly the better guys.

ETA: and what I actually said was that we were backing the good guys. Zelensky, and his supporters, are good guys.


We aren't all that bad, either, even if there are issues sometimes.

Meadmaker wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 8:30 pmWe aren't all that bad, either, even if there are issues sometimes.

That's really the important point.

I'm extremely critical of many American actions and have had the murder of Reuters staff in Iraq on my website for a decade now. I've contributed to Wikileaks and won't accept lots of American actions.

The problem with America is it's atrocities and errors are generally crimes of omission, not commission. Iraq was a fuck up, but for what seemed like good reasons at the time. They weren't to know Saddam's people would evolve into ISIS, but it should never have happened anyway.

China and Putin, on the other hand commit crimes of commission. Putin had every intention of taking Ukraine over in a Blitzkreig that would have enslaved the whole population and the gulags would be humming. Luckily, his army is as corrupt as he is and the whole thing became a farce, but would still have succeeded without opposition. Not supporting Ukraine would be a war crime.

arthwollipot wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 6:09 am Ukraine is not "Russian turf".

Ukraine was part of Russia for 70 years, prior to 1991 when we meddled and destabilized that relationship for the sake of the billions in commodities as well as surrounding Russia with Nato alignment. Selling weapons is a side feature that will help us control their resources. As usual.

not sins of omission.
sins of aggression and bombs and death; same like always, going back to the beginning of America.
To soft serve this aggression is criminal; our collective hypnotic spell at play. We forget NK; Vietnam; Iraq and every war of aggression we've started.

TA, you can't be this delusional.