trump off the CO ballot

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Meadmaker
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Re: trump off the CO ballot

Post by Meadmaker »

stanky wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 4:42 am as far as i know, our electoral process is particularly non-democratic compared to other modern democracies. the electoral college sux; gerrymandering and redistricting;
I assume that's why we get 50th in "representation". Not everyone's vote is equal.

That's bad. It should change.

Is it bad enough to say that we aren't a democracy, because some people 250 or so years ago came up with a system that has some cracks today? I'm not seeing it.
this election is a classic. force feeding the masses a shit sandwich.
Ironically, the worst of this has come in an attempt to make things more democratic and give more choice to the people. It used to be that party bosses picked the candidates with very little input from people. Now we have primaries. It turns out those don't produce ideal candidates.
It'll be illegal to criticize Israel.


No, that won't happen. Not even close.
Meadmaker
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Re: trump off the CO ballot

Post by Meadmaker »

President Bush wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 5:00 am
Little while ago you said:
Meadmaker wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 1:44 am I can't say I know much about Bolivia.
Well, yeah. We have google now. A few search terms took me to the State Department and to Human Rights Watch.

Funny thing about that money=speech idea.

Far as I can tell the corporate right to free speech isn't about any freedom to speak.
That's a separate, though overlapping, issue.

It seems like commercial, for profit, entities shouldn't have the same rights, if that term can even be applied to a commercial corporation, as individuals. The Supreme Court didn't agree, but so it goes.

What I believe is that groups like the Lincoln Project ought to be able to collect money and buy ads, and should be pretty free to do that pretty much however they want. Whether General Motors should be able to do the same is a separate issue, although for me I'm more concerned about the propriety of using business funds for politics rather than any effect it might have on the election. If people have such low level of knowledge or convictions that they can be swayed by an advertisement, we're in trouble.

Which.....is true. But the soluition isn't to try to limit advertising. It won't work. People with money will find other ways to attempt to influence the elections.
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arthwollipot
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Re: trump off the CO ballot

Post by arthwollipot »

Meadmaker wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 6:54 amIs it bad enough to say that we aren't a democracy, because some people 250 or so years ago came up with a system that has some cracks today? I'm not seeing it.
"Some cracks" doesn't even begin to describe the problems with American "democracy".
If you're not on edge, you're taking up too much space.
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President Bush
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Re: trump off the CO ballot

Post by President Bush »

Meadmaker wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 7:06 am
President Bush wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 5:00 am
Little while ago you said:
Meadmaker wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 1:44 am I can't say I know much about Bolivia.
Well, yeah. We have google now. A few search terms took me to the State Department and to Human Rights Watch.
You learned all about Bolivia from a couple of links?

Oh, and I just learned all about the United States of America from these two links.

https://bigthink.com/the-present/united ... an-rights/

https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/01/11/us- ... challenges
President Bush wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 5:00 am Funny thing about that money=speech idea.

Far as I can tell the corporate right to free speech isn't about any freedom to speak.
Meadmaker wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 7:06 amThat's a separate, though overlapping, issue.

It seems like commercial, for profit, entities shouldn't have the same rights, if that term can even be applied to a commercial corporation, as individuals. The Supreme Court didn't agree, but so it goes.

What I believe is that groups like the Lincoln Project ought to be able to collect money and buy ads, and should be pretty free to do that pretty much however they want. Whether General Motors should be able to do the same is a separate issue, although for me I'm more concerned about the propriety of using business funds for politics rather than any effect it might have on the election. If people have such low level of knowledge or convictions that they can be swayed by an advertisement, we're in trouble.

Which.....is true. But the soluition isn't to try to limit advertising. It won't work. People with money will find other ways to attempt to influence the elections.
Sorry but that is fairly incoherent. General Motors has the same political free speech rights as the Lincoln Project. If General Motors corporate speech could be restricted, then the Lincoln Projects speech could be, too.That is the law whether you like it or not.

You implied earlier that Bolivian democracy would be less "sound" in not having these same corporate political speech rights.
Meadmaker
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Re: trump off the CO ballot

Post by Meadmaker »

arthwollipot wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 7:17 am
Meadmaker wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 6:54 amIs it bad enough to say that we aren't a democracy, because some people 250 or so years ago came up with a system that has some cracks today? I'm not seeing it.
"Some cracks" doesn't even begin to describe the problems with American "democracy".
I think you;ve been overly influenced by partisan media. Things really aren't that bad here. Republicans have a slight unearned advantage due to our system of states, congressional districts, and electoral votes. That's bad, but it's not the end of democracy. Our votes still count. The Democrats still hold the senate. Donald Trump won one more election than he deserved, but he lost the second one.

In a different thread, you asked me why I cared, and my answer was basically that I just wanted to be right. To some extent that's true here, too, but in this case I think there is an important issue. If people think we don't have a democracy, they'll accept measures that undermine it. On both left and right, there are efforts to tweak the system to move the needle slightly in their favor, but at some point someone might simply declare it broken, and end it altogether. The biggest threat right now is that millions of people in American believe the election of 2020 was stolen, but there are fewer, but still millions, of people who say that the election of 2016 was stolen. All of that rhetoric hurts democracy.
stanky
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Re: trump off the CO ballot

Post by stanky »

More and more power goes to unelected and covert actors whom face zero accountability.
What voice do we have to counter our military activities?
That's the American democracy that concerns me.
(and the disgraceful supreme court)

9/11 was used as an excuse to do mass surveillance and allow Citizen's United and the Patriot Act to run roughshod over hard won regulations meant to curb the influence of political 'donations'. Also, anti-trust laws have been crushed, with a devastating impact on media control. The best voices in true journalism have been run off. Even at Real News and the intercept, critics of policy are being silenced. Chris Hedges has (again) been fired for honest reporting. RT is no longer available here, along with the handful of honest American reporters that we could hear. Israel has cancelled Al Jazera just yesterday. Protest is terrorism or hate speech when aimed at the real terrorism and hate that we bankroll.

Should i make a list of significant voices that have been cancelled in the last year? How about the treatment of whistle blowers in general? Any cause for concern? This creeping Nationalism, disguised as love for Jesus rather than white supremacy; our tolerance for toxic products that are banned in most modern nations? Our constant war crimes without accountability?
are these not troubling signs? Or do they simply not exist?

We need to fix it, not apologize for it while enabling more.
Meadmaker
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Re: trump off the CO ballot

Post by Meadmaker »

President Bush wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 3:41 pm
Meadmaker wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 7:06 am
President Bush wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 5:00 am
Little while ago you said:

Well, yeah. We have google now. A few search terms took me to the State Department and to Human Rights Watch.
You learned all about Bolivia from a couple of links?
I learned that Human Rights Watch doesn't give them a great review.
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President Bush
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Re: trump off the CO ballot

Post by President Bush »

Meadmaker wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 9:47 pm
President Bush wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 3:41 pm
Meadmaker wrote: Sun May 05, 2024 7:06 am

Well, yeah. We have google now. A few search terms took me to the State Department and to Human Rights Watch.
You learned all about Bolivia from a couple of links?
I learned that Human Rights Watch doesn't give them a great review.
I brought up Bolivia - and specifically its current president Luis Arce - only in reply to your challenge to show any modern democracy that doesn't have elements of plutocracy in it.

I checked the Human Rights Watch page on Bolivia 2023.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2023/c ... rs/bolivia

Virtually all of the references in their report concern the two previous administrations, the Morales and Áñez governments.
Political interference plagued Bolivia’s justice system during the governments of former President Evo Morales (January 2006-November 2019) and former Interim President Jeanine Áñez (November 2019-2020). President Luis Arce, who took office in November 2020, has failed to spur justice reform.

The Arce administration supports unsubstantiated and excessive charges of terrorism and genocide against former President Áñez. In June 2022, a judge sentenced her to 10 years in prison on charges of dereliction of duty and contravening the law, which are defined very broadly in Bolivia. She was not allowed to attend her trial in person.

Nobody has been held accountable for 37 killings in the context of election-related protests in 2019, including of 20 people in two massacres during which state security forces opened fire on protesters, according to witnesses.

Women and girls remain at high risk of violence. Prison overcrowding—and excessive pretrial detention—continues. Indigenous communities face obstacles to exercising their right, under international law, to free, prior, and informed consent to measures that may affect them.

Judicial Independence and Due Process

The Morales and Áñez governments pursued what appeared to be politically motivated charges against political rivals.

After winning the October 2020 presidential election, President Arce said the justice system should be independent from politics, but his government has failed to take concrete steps to reform it.

In a May 2022 report, the United Nations special rapporteur on the independence of judges and lawyers said external interference in the justice system is a long-standing, continuing problem. Almost 50 percent of judges and 70 percent of prosecutors in Bolivia remained “temporary” as of February, the report noted. Officials who lack security of tenure may be vulnerable to reprisals, including arbitrary dismissal, if they make decisions that displease those in power.

In March 2021, police detained former Interim President Áñez and two of her former ministers on terrorism and other charges. The attorney general later accused Áñez of genocide in connection with two massacres during her government. Human Rights Watch reviewed the charging documents and found the terrorism and genocide charges unsubstantiated and grossly disproportionate. The definition of those crimes is overly broad under Bolivian law. As of October 2022, the two former ministers remained in pretrial detention.

In June 2022, in a separate case, a tribunal sentenced Áñez to ten years of prison for dereliction of duty and taking decisions contrary to the law—crimes that are also very broadly defined in Bolivian law—for her actions as she took office as interim president in November 2019. Áñez was not allowed to attend her own trial in person, as judges argued that they could not guarantee her health or security in the courthouse. That prevented Áñez from conferring with her lawyers during the hearings.

In April, Marco Aramayo died in his seventh year of detention amid serious allegations of inadequate health care and ill-treatment. In 2015, after he became the director of the state Indigenous development fund, he reported several corruption schemes allegedly involving prominent supporters of the Morales government. Instead of properly investigating those allegations, prosecutors had him detained and charged with corruption, according to ITEI, a Bolivian nonprofit.

Responding to criticism by Human Rights Watch and others, police said in June they would stop presenting people they had arrested to the press, a practice that risked violating the presumption of innocence. Yet, the minister of the interior continued to post photos of suspects on social media.

Protest-Related Violence and Abuses

The Interdisciplinary Group of Independent Experts (GIEI, in Spanish), established under a government agreement with the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR), issued a report in August 2021 documenting the deaths of 37 people in the context of protests over contested October 2019 elections.

It documented acts of violence “instigated” by the Morales administration, including injuries, abductions, and torture of anti-Morales protesters. It asserted that police failed to protect people from violence by both pro- and anti-Morales supporters, and in some locations encouraged and collaborated with violent groups of anti-Morales supporters acting as “para-police.”

It also concluded that, during the Áñez government, security forces killed 20 pro-Morales protesters and injured more than 170 people in massacres in Sacaba, a city in Cochabamba, and Senkata, a neighborhood of El Alto. The report provided robust evidence of other abuses throughout the country, including illegal detentions, sexual violence, and “systematic” torture by police in the predominantly Indigenous city of El Alto.

The GIEI highlighted major flaws in probes of the abuses and called on the Attorney General’s Office to reopen cases it had closed without crucial investigative steps. As of October 2022, no one had been held responsible for the crimes; Congress and the government were discussing a bill and policy to provide reparation to victims.

In March, the government signed an agreement with the IACHR for creation of an international mechanism to monitor implementation of the GIEI’s recommendations, but it failed to create a national-level mechanism for which the GIEI had also called.

Freedom of Expression and Access to Information

The National Press Association, which represents the country’s main print media, reported several cases of violence by police or demonstrators against reporters in 2022.

In August, the Attorney General’s Office announced an investigation of two journalists, a newscaster and other individuals who worked for a state TV channel during the Áñez administration, for allegedly paying the former newscaster a salary that was higher than the allowable rate. The crimes they were accused of carry a maximum penalty of ten years in prison. The president of the La Paz Press Association viewed the investigation as an attempt by the Arce administration, working with prosecutors, to intimidate Bolivian journalists.

Bolivia lacks a law regulating the allocation of paid advertising by the state. From January through August, 80 percent of the advertising contracts by the state with print media had gone to only two pro-government newspapers, several media reported.

Bolivia also lacks a law to implement the right of access to information enshrined in its constitution. In May 2022, the Arce administration said journalists’ associations—not the government—should draft an access to information bill.

Accountability for Past Abuses

Bolivian authorities have made insufficient efforts to hold accountable officials responsible for human rights violations under authoritarian governments between 1964 and 1982. Only a handful have been prosecuted. The armed forces have generally refused to share information.

After camping outside the Justice Ministry for more than a decade, several victims’ associations signed an agreement with the government in August, in which the Arce administration committed itself to reparation payments to victims or family members of various authoritarian-era abuses.

Detention Conditions

Detention centers in Bolivia hold more than 2.5 times more detainees than they were built to accommodate. The prison population grew 12 percent between November 2021 and March 2022, to 20,864 people, official data obtained by Fundación Construir, a Bolivian nongovernmental organization (NGO), showed.

Bolivia’s justice system continues to use pretrial detention excessively. As of March 2022, 65 percent of male detainees and 71 percent of female detainees were awaiting trial, Fundación Construir said.

Indigenous Rights

The 2009 constitution includes comprehensive guarantees of Indigenous peoples’ rights to collective land titling; intercultural education; protection of Indigenous justice systems; and free, prior, and informed consent on development projects. Yet, Indigenous peoples face barriers in exercising those rights.

The Documentation and Information Center of Bolivia (CEDIB), an NGO, and the United Nations special rapporteur on toxics and human rights reported that growing, illegal use of mercury in mining is damaging the health of Indigenous communities.

Women’s and Girls’ Rights

Women and girls remain at high risk of violence, despite a 2013 law establishing comprehensive measures to prevent and prosecute gender-based violence. The law created the crime of “femicide,” defining it as the killing of a woman under certain circumstances, including domestic violence.

The attorney general reported 108 femicides in 2021 and 69 from January through September 2022.

A study published in The Lancet in February 2022 estimated, using data from 2000 to 2018, that 42 percent of Bolivian girls and women between 15 and 49 years old have suffered violence by a partner or former partner, the highest percentage in Latin America and the Caribbean.

Under Bolivian law, abortion is not a crime when pregnancy results from rape or when necessary to protect the life or health of a pregnant person. However, women and girls seeking such legal abortions are likely to encounter stigma, mistreatment, and revictimization.

Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity

In December 2020, Bolivia’s civil registry abided by a court order and registered a gay couple’s relationship as a “free union,” Bolivia’s first same-sex union. In May 2022, after delaying a year, the registry also registered a lesbian couple’s relationship.

The case brought by the first gay couple is pending before the Constitutional Court, which is expected to determine whether all same-sex couples can join in “free unions.”

Key International Actors

Throughout 2022, Bolivia has consistently opposed scrutiny on certain states’ human rights records and failed to protect victims’ rights in international forums. In the United Nations General Assembly and the UN Human Rights Council, it abstained or voted against multiple resolutions condemning Russia’s rights violations in Ukraine and voted against renewing the mandate of the UN fact-finding mission in Venezuela and holding a debate on the human rights situation in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of China. In the Organization of American States, it abstained from a resolution calling on the Nicaraguan government to release political prisoners and cease persecution of media.

In March, the UN Human Rights Committee urged Bolivia to guarantee judges’ and prosecutors’ independence and impartiality; allow same-sex couples to enter into free unions; and protect journalists from threats and violence.

In July, the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women expressed its concern over high levels of gender-based violence in Bolivia and called on the government to ensure thorough investigations. It also urged Bolivia to remove barriers to legal abortion, and to decriminalize abortion.
In Bolivia, approximately roughly 50% of lawmakers at every level of government are women.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/cpsp ... c.png.webp

Meanwhile in the US, women held only about a quarter of the seats in Congress in 2022 while only nine of the 50 US states has a woman as governor.

Anyhow your icon, Henry Kissinger, would have been moved by your concern for human rights.
I don’t see why we need to stand by and watch a country go Communist due to the irresponsibility of its people,” he said, adding: “The issues are much too important for the (Chilean) voters to be left to decide for themselves.”
-Dr Henry Kissinger
sparks
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Re: trump off the CO ballot

Post by sparks »

Excellent example of great homework Prez.

Thank you. ;)
stanky
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Re: trump off the CO ballot

Post by stanky »

The 'rhetoric' that hurts America is yours, if what you're saying is that things are fine. They aren't. They're getting worse, fast. The two parties are indistinguishable; the media censored to the truth; whistle-blowers shuttered away...why do we have the most prisoners? The most drug addicts' and gun murders;
should we be proud? or put heads in sand? or put up a bit of resistance?
The wealth transfer has been insane and continuing unabated. We're losing control. We're being run-over by greed protected by law.

So, I object. To recent developments that have rewarded the psychopaths while crushing the workers. To our justice system in decay. To our criminal legacy of unprovoked aggression and exploitation of weaker nations, of using military might to enable political interference for the sake of corporate extractions, never respecting democracies, their elected leaders or the people, as we leave another mess behind elsewhere.

It's not ok. Being ok with it is troubling. The U.S. has become a negative force. Trump is a perfect representation of the new america.
Sad to see, but america is a big fat old rich threatening braggart who disregards law and is incapable of honesty.

I say that with a sense of patriotism.

Planet first

(oops, missed the above. )
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